Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

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Apuneger
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Re: Go-around of Air Berlins final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Apuneger »

Passenger wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 13:47 When a commercial airliner is flying with passengers, the aim must be zero risk. This fly-by had a risk that is bigger then 0 on a scale 0-10, hence it was unsafe.
Hi,

Please allow me to comment on this:

1. There no such thing as 'zero risk'.
2. Following your logic, every single commercial flight would be unsafe.
3. I have done a few special flights which included flyby's and/or intentional go-arounds. I don't think any of these airlines would have operated the flights if they felt it was unsafe to do so.

Best regards,
Ivan
It's not good when it's done, it's done when it's good...
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shockcooling
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by shockcooling »

My point of view,

A standard missed approach is a normal procedure, but still some passengers might feel uncomfortable, which is logical, you just expect to touch down instead of buzzing away.
Don't forget the flight came from the US, you know some US citizens are prone to sue everyone/thing if they feel they've been mistreated ;)
Performing a non standard missed approach, we sometimes need to discuss this with ATC eg due to bad Wx or operational limits due to a tech problem, etc... is no problem.

In this case the go-around was discussed and approved with ATC, no harm there, only when I first saw this video, my initial thought was, oh my, I hope they don't get in trouble for this. The go-around performance of the 330 is massive and in normal circumstances the plane would have never flown this close or low passing the terminal. It clearly was a 'show' from this crew, who actually knew their job wasn't at risk anymore, so who cares. Beautiful to look at, a lot of emotions on board and on the ground of course, but knowing many pax are not 100% at ease and minding some US pax. This will be and needs to be investigated as a 'show' but most probably will find no consequences, except a warning. But who cares ;) I don't...

my 2 cents
a FO A330

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by jan_olieslagers »

@shockcooling: nice to hear from an insider, thanks! Even nicer to see your PoV much corresponding to my own :) - which I wasn't going to post due to limited relevance, me being NOT an insider.

And yes, this little bit of show was obviously premeditated and tower staff were in the know well before.
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 20 Oct 2017, 16:29, edited 1 time in total.

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KriVa
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by KriVa »

Flying is never without risk.
Driving a car is never without risk.
Going down a set of stairs is never without risk.

Is the aim of (commercial) aviation to be risk-free? No, it isn't, because it would be ludicrously expensive to even try and achieve that goal. The aim of (commercial) aviation is to get that amount of risk as low as possible within certain constraints.
Was this a risky manoeuvre? Considering the circumstances (CAVOK, ATC in the know, more than likely the manoeuvre was briefed beforehand,...), not any more risky than the standard missed approach would have been, or than landing would have been.
As I said before, even some standard, published, missed approaches at our very own airports would give this non-standard missed approach a run for its money in terms of being impressive, whether you would look at it from within the cabin, or from the ground.

This was simply an early turn to rejoin the visual circuit. A manoeuvre every single pilot practices during his PPL training in a Cessna, Piper or the likes. Aircraft which are a lot more unforgiving during the go around than an A330 in terms of flight envelope.

But, consider this, let's wait for the outcome of the final report instead of bickering. I don't doubt for a second what the conclusion will be.
Thomas

convair
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by convair »

KriVa wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 16:21 Flying is never without risk.
Driving a car is never without risk.
Going down a set of stairs is never without risk.

Is the aim of (commercial) aviation to be risk-free? No, it isn't, because it would be ludicrously expensive to even try and achieve that goal. The aim of (commercial) aviation is to get that amount of risk as low as possible within certain constraints.
Was this a risky manoeuvre? Considering the circumstances (CAVOK, ATC in the know, more than likely the manoeuvre was briefed beforehand,...), not any more risky than the standard missed approach would have been, or than landing would have been.
As I said before, even some standard, published, missed approaches at our very own airports would give this non-standard missed approach a run for its money in terms of being impressive, whether you would look at it from within the cabin, or from the ground.

This was simply an early turn to rejoin the visual circuit. A manoeuvre every single pilot practices during his PPL training in a Cessna, Piper or the likes. Aircraft which are a lot more unforgiving during the go around than an A330 in terms of flight envelope.

But, consider this, let's wait for the outcome of the final report instead of bickering. I don't doubt for a second what the conclusion will be.
I know all that and I respect your opinion. Mine, without bickering, is that it was an un-necessary manoeuvre (a show) that added an un-necessary risk. As you and others said, zero risk doesn't exist.

And, granted, there are special flights in which this kind of show is performed; but in these, the pax, if any, know what to expect and take a deliberate risk.

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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by jan_olieslagers »

At the bottom of all, I agree to that. We all know there is no (meaningful) life without risk, but in this case extra risk was introduced for no reason but "fun" or "excitement" or whatever you call it. A microgramme of extra risk, perhaps, but still.

That said, how far will we go? One day, the traditional water salute by airport fire brigades will be forbidden for wasting horrid amounts of precious clean water. Mag er nog geleefd worden ook, alstublieft? Must every microgramme of fun and excitement and colour-rich tradition be banned?

Passenger
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Passenger »

KriVa wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 16:21 But, consider this, let's wait for the outcome of the final report instead of bickering. I don't doubt for a second what the conclusion will be.
Can you share with us what you think that the outcome will be?

flightlover
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by flightlover »

And who says the pax where not 'in the know' about the special manoeuvre? I can very well imagine the crew informing the pax well ahead they are going to do such a manoeuvre when it is cleared by atc.

And I for one would not mind it at all ;)

AirOpinion
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by AirOpinion »

Special flights are proceeded by a risk assessment. I would be curious to see if there was a risk assessment for this maneuver.

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KriVa
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by KriVa »

The risk assessment will have been done twice: once on the flight deck, and once by the air traffic controller. If both sign off on the amended missed approach, then no other risk assessment is needed for this standard manoeuvre.
The risk assessments you mention are done for manoeuvres which are not commonly performed, or for a sequence of manoeuvres. This was neither.

My prediction as to the outcome of the investigation? Desuspension and no further action warranted.
Thomas

sean1982
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by sean1982 »

AirOpinion wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 23:45 Special flights are proceeded by a risk assessment. I would be curious to see if there was a risk assessment for this maneuver.
It’s not a special flight though. It was a normal go around with a normal bank angle, and thus standard manoeuvre performed by thousand of airplanes every single day.

shockcooling
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by shockcooling »

sean1982 wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 08:19
AirOpinion wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 23:45 Special flights are proceeded by a risk assessment. I would be curious to see if there was a risk assessment for this maneuver.
It’s not a special flight though. It was a normal go around with a normal bank angle, and thus standard manoeuvre performed by thousand of airplanes every single day.
Take a look at the very first video in this thread, make sure the sound is on. Now after you have watched it very carefully and listened to which moment go around thrust is set, just tell me again if this was a normal go around?

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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by sean1982 »

shockcooling wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 11:34
sean1982 wrote: 21 Oct 2017, 08:19
AirOpinion wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 23:45 Special flights are proceeded by a risk assessment. I would be curious to see if there was a risk assessment for this maneuver.
It’s not a special flight though. It was a normal go around with a normal bank angle, and thus standard manoeuvre performed by thousand of airplanes every single day.
Take a look at the very first video in this thread, make sure the sound is on. Now after you have watched it very carefully and listened to which moment go around thrust is set, just tell me again if this was a normal go around?
It does indeed sound like more thrust is set late in the turn, however as the aircraft flies towards the camera I can’t be sure and also on the B737 the transition from G/A thrust to CLB was in some cases in fact an increase rather than a decrease in thrust, don’t really know how that works on the Airbus

Passenger
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Passenger »

A short video, with different angles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nVOlVAu8t0


Boeing767copilot
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Boeing767copilot »

Air Berlin pilot cleared after fly-by stunt at Dusseldorf airport

https://www.aviation24.be/defunct-airlin ... ul-flight/
https://news.sky.com/story/air-berlin-p ... t-11177300

Authorities have cleared an Air Berlin pilot who aborted his final landing at the last moment to make a low pass around a control tower.
The federal agency which oversees air safety in Germany concluded the manoeuvre in Dusseldorf in October did not break rules.
Videos showed the Airbus A330 from Miami, which had more than 200 people on board, swooping around the tower before landing safely.
Control tower staff can be heard in the footage reacting in astonishment as the plane flies past.
Air Berlin ceased to operate in October and parts of the company have been sold off to rival carriers.
At the time, the pilots of the aircraft were suspended by Air Berlin following the incident.

So, much to do about nothing

Passenger
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Passenger »

It's not the decision from the Luftfahrt-Bundesamtes (LBA), but from the Bundesaufsichtsamt für Flugsicherung (BAF).

https://www.baf.bund.de/SharedDocs/Kurz ... nn=1576850

German text:

19.12.2017 - Durchstartmanöver von Flug AB7001 in Düsseldorf war nicht zu beanstanden

Das Bundesaufsichtsamt für Flugsicherung (BAF) hat die Untersuchungen zum Durchstartmanöver des letzten Langstreckenfluges von Air Berlin nach Düsseldorf am 16.10.2017 abgeschlossen. Das Bundesaufsichtsamt für Flugsicherung (BAF) hat seine Untersuchungen zum Durchstartmanöver eines Luftfahrzeugs der Air Berlin am Flughafen Düsseldorf abgeschlossen. Zusammenfassend kommt das BAF zum Ergebnis, dass der Sachverhalt keinen Anlass zu Maßnahmen des BAF gibt und dass insbesondere keine luftverkehrsrechtliche Ordnungswidrigkeit vorliegt, die zur Einleitung eines Bußgeldverfahrens führen würde.

Am 16.10.2017 fand der letzte Langstreckenflug der Air Berlin nach Düsseldorf statt. Nach Durchsicht aller von der Flugsicherung zur Verfügung gestellten Unterlagen wie Radarplots und Sprachaufzeichnungen kommt das BAF zu dem Schluss, dass die Piloten ihren geplanten Tiefanflug bereits frühzeitig bei der Flugsicherung ankündigten. Die letztendliche Freigabe der Fluglotsen beinhaltete lediglich eine Landefreigabe in Verbindung mit einer Einzelfreigabe für ein mögliches Fehlanflugverfahren. Damit verblieb die Verantwortung für die Flugwegführung weiterhin beim Piloten. Der durchaus ungewöhnliche Flugverlauf verstieß jedoch nicht gegen vom BAF zu prüfende luftrechtliche Vorschriften. Das Verfahren wurde daher eingestellt, weil keine Ordnungswidrigkeit vorliegt.


- - - - -

Translated by translate.google.com:

19.12.2017 - Launch maneuver of flight AB7001 in Dusseldorf was not objectionable

The Federal Supervisory Office for Air Traffic Control (BAF) has completed the investigations into the launching maneuver of the last long-haul flight from Air Berlin to Düsseldorf on 16 October 2017. The Federal Supervisory Office for Air Traffic Control (BAF) has completed its investigations into the take-off maneuver of an Air Berlin aircraft at Düsseldorf Airport. In summary, the BAF comes to the conclusion that the facts do not give rise to any measures taken by the BAF and that, in particular, there is no administrative offense under aviation law that would lead to the initiation of a fine procedure.

On 16.10.2017 the last long-haul flight of the Air Berlin to Dusseldorf took place. After reviewing all documents provided by air traffic control, such as radar plots and voice recordings, the BAF concludes that the pilots had already announced their planned low-level approach to air traffic control at an early stage. The final clearance of the air traffic controllers included only a landing clearance in conjunction with a single clearance for a possible missed approach procedure. Thus, the responsibility for the flight path remained with the pilot. However, the very unusual course of the flight did not violate the legal requirements to be examined by the BAF. The proceedings were therefore terminated because there was no offense.

sean1982
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by sean1982 »

Again, much to do about nothing

Bracebrace
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Bracebrace »

On the discussion of "risk":

During takeoff: any minor malfunction below a certain speed during the takeoff roll, and the pilots are trained to take it in the air. During approach and landing: any problem/malfunction below a certain altitude will result in a go-around, unless there is an immediate life-threatening danger (ie fire/smoke).

It is a general wrong idea from the "ground people" that it is always safer to land. Flying 50ft above the ground, aiming for a touchdown point and betting to stop before the end of the runway imposes far more risks than going around... In the majority of the cases it is far more safer to keep flying, which is what the "air people" do :-).

Passenger
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Passenger »

Again: safety in aviation is not only about "nothing has happened and the pilot was in control". It's also about "don't take unnecessary risks to exclude that something unforeseen may happen".

What if there was an engine failure during this very low fly-by? A double engine problem? A bird strike? An hydraulic problem? Any other technical issue?

You want to perform a spectacular fly-by? No problem. Drop your passengers at destination. Get their luggage out. And then do your thing.

Bracebrace
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Re: Go-around on Air Berlin's final long-haul flight #AB7001

Post by Bracebrace »

Passenger wrote: 20 Dec 2017, 19:53 Again: safety in aviation is not only about "nothing has happened and the pilot was in control". It's also about "don't take unnecessary risks to exclude that something unforeseen may happen".
This sounds more like the psychological problem called "fear". Same applies for driving a car. Not driving a car is safer than driving one. Not flying is safer than flying.

There are no unnecessary risks. Engine failures, bird strike effects, hydraulic problems, any other technical issues are all procedures that call for "get above MSA, deal with the problem and prepare the landing" than trying to to land thinking it's safer to be on the ground with that problem. It is not. Unless you're on fire.

If you consider increased airtime is an increased risk, than I wouldn't fly anymore, as any pilot is trained to deal with problems in the air. Pilots will not rush a landing, never.

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