Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

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Magiktrix
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Magiktrix » 04 Oct 2017, 17:05

France is out. Vandeput refuse the offer. Its in Le soir and La libre

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 » 24 Oct 2017, 14:35

Magiktrix wrote:
04 Oct 2017, 17:05
France is out. Vandeput refuse the offer. Its in Le soir and La libre
Dassault nevertheless continues its offensive to sell the Rafale to Belgium and promises 1500 new high-tech jobs if Belgium purchases its plane.

Dassault already employs 3000 people in Belgium through Sabca (Gosselies, Haren, Lummen), Safran AeroBoosters (Herstal) and Thales (Tubize, Herstal, Charleroi, Zaventem).

The Government currently examines the legality of the Dassault offer (out of the Request for Government Proposal RfGP to which only Lockheed Martin and Eurofighter had replied) .
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 » 26 Oct 2017, 21:21

sn26567 wrote:
24 Oct 2017, 14:35
Dassault ... promises 1500 new high-tech jobs if Belgium purchases its plane.
And Eurofighter ups the ante by promising 1700 jobs if Belgium buys the Typhoon.

Lockheed Martin, how many jobs for the F-35?
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida » 17 Nov 2017, 01:13

ASCO Industries, based in Zaventem, has been awarded a contract for the production of high-speed flaps (Flaperon Spars) for the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II program.

Image

More:
The F-35 Flaperon Spars are very complex titanium components that form the basis of the F-35 flaps. ASCO will ensure the manufacturing and integrated surface treatments of the components in their headquarters in Zaventem.

Once produced, the components will be delivered to Fokker, in the Netherlands, who will assemble the composite materials and deliver the complete component to Lockheed Martin plant in Fort Worth, USA.

The agreement signature ceremony was attended by Fokker's Vice President for Procurement and Supply Chain Management, Toine Verbruggen, and ASCO Industries' Chief Commercial Officer, Laurent Canoen.

"This agreement will contribute to the development of a European F-35 supply chains network. Asco is an internationally recognized flaps supplier. We are looking forward to working with them on this program," said Toine Verbruggen.

"Asco is very pleased to partner with Fokker Technologies in the F-35 program and to further develop the relationship between our two companies. This contract marks a new step in ASCO's continued participation in the Lockheed Martin F-35 program through our various worlwide entities," stated Laurent Canoen.

Lockheed Martin is engaged with Fokker Technologies to position ASCO Belgium as a supplier of titanium fin components as part of the Belgian F-16 replacement program (ACCap). With this contract, ASCO Belgium will have the opportunity to develop its industrial and technical capacities, while providing affordable solutions for the F-35 program.

Through the ACCap program, the Belgian Air Component seeks to purchase 34 new fighter aircraft to be acquired from Spring 2018 for an amount of 3,573 billion euros. Two contenders are officially competing for this 3.5bn € ($4.2 bn) program: Lockheed Martin with its F-35A JSF, and BAE Systems with the Eurofighter Typhoon.

ASCO, incorporated in 1954, is a proven technology specialist and supply chain integrator in design, development, precision machining, processing, certified assembly and MRO of complex high aircraft components. Headquartered in Zaventem Belgium, ASCO has four manufacturing plants in Belgium, the United States, Canada and Germany.

Today, the ASCO Group employs 1,500 people. Its worldwide, 100% Aerospace customer base includes most aircraft manufacturers as well as many related Tier-1 suppliers.

https://www.airrecognition.com/index.ph ... tract.html

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Oliv5590 » 17 Jan 2018, 11:25

That may pave the way for an adoption of the F-35... But no matter how is the state of the Belgian economy, I doubt that Brussels will be able to afford more than a couple of these.
If this trend of increasingly expensive, technologically advanced, stealth, multirole fighters keeps going, at some point they'll become like battleships before WW2, having a couple ones will be a strategical advantage and national prestige, and more and more countries won't even have one. Several European countries have already ditched their fixed wing combat airframes... As long as technology doesn't allow planes as good as 5th gen fighters to be produced for a cheaper price, this trend will become only stronger and stronger, and fighter sales will fall.

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 » 17 Jan 2018, 18:22

Oliv5590 wrote:
17 Jan 2018, 11:25
That may pave the way for an adoption of the F-35...
Welcome to aviation24.be, Oliv5590. Glad to have a visitor living in Russia.

The Belgian military and the Minister of Defence are in favour of the F-35, but other cabinet members are split. The F-35 is the most expensive one and still has to prove its value after many failures in the past months.

And the Americans don't offer many compensations. Eurofighter (Typhoon) and Dassault (Rafale) are cheaper, have a proven record and offer far more compensations.

Who will win? That remains everyone's guess...
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by lumumba » 17 Jan 2018, 20:38

Also the French will offer protection and are pushing to have a global European army etc....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by eurojet » 18 Jan 2018, 13:54

... and the French basically used pure blackmail on the Dexia-file in case we don't go for Rafale ... The compensation they offer is nothing else than a catalogue of large existing investment the French have here already (energy, etc ...). Read Geert Noels opinion about it some weeks ago in De Tijd ...

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 » 18 Jan 2018, 18:08

eurojet wrote:
18 Jan 2018, 13:54
... and the French basically used pure blackmail on the Dexia-file in case we don't go for Rafale ... The compensation they offer is nothing else than a catalogue of large existing investment the French have here already (energy, etc ...). Read Geert Noels opinion about it some weeks ago in De Tijd ...
I guess our politicians will be able to sort out what is a real compensation. Or aren't they?
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Homo Aeroportus » 18 Jan 2018, 18:33

sn26567 wrote:
18 Jan 2018, 18:08
eurojet wrote:
18 Jan 2018, 13:54
... and the French basically used pure blackmail on the Dexia-file in case we don't go for Rafale ... The compensation they offer is nothing else than a catalogue of large existing investment the French have here already (energy, etc ...). Read Geert Noels opinion about it some weeks ago in De Tijd ...
I guess our politicians will be able to sort out what is a real compensation. Or aren't they?
Quoting Flight Global 2011-09-12 :

A meeting between the US ambassador to Brussels and Belgium's defence minister Pieter De Crem on 16 October 2009 was described in a cable revealed earlier this month by the Wikileaks organisation.

The cable notes that De Crem raised the subject of the F-35 during the meeting.

"He thinks that the [Belgian government] should purchase some of the aircraft 'off the shelf' from the partners as they become available, perhaps in the 2020 timeframe," the US embassy wrote.

.......

The Netherlands and Norway signed up in 2002 to participate in the development of the F-35. However, Belgium did not join them.

De Crem "recognized that Belgium is too late to enter the production process of the aircraft as a partner", the cable noted.

There was no indication in the embassy's cable that Belgium planned to solicit bids from rival fighter manufacturers.

Although Norway and the Netherlands invested and helped develop the F-35, both countries solicited bids before making a formal decision to buy the Lockheed stealth fighter.

Two years later De Crem is still in office, but it is not clear if Belgium's plans have changed. Since the October 2009 meeting with the ambassador, the US government has announced two major delays and restructurings of the F-35 programme. These have delayed the end of the development phase by at least three years and pushed hundreds of planned fighter purchases beyond 2015.

End of quote.

Leopold II : "Un pays n'est jamais petit lorsqu'il touche à la mer",
or did he mean "... à l'amer" ?

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by MD-11forever » 24 Jan 2018, 09:16

Some reliability issue with the F-35 it seems:

Lockheed F-35's Reliability Progress Has Stalled, Pentagon Told

(Bloomberg) -- Efforts to improve the reliability of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 are “stagnant,” undercut by problems such as aircraft sitting idle over the last year awaiting spare parts from the contractor, according to the Pentagon’s testing office.
The availability of the fighter jet for missions when needed -- a key metric -- remains “around 50 percent, a condition that has existed with no significant improvement since October 2014, despite the increasing number of aircraft,” Robert Behler, the Defense Department’s new director of operational testing, said in an annual report delivered Tuesday to senior Pentagon leaders and congressional committees.
Still, the Defense Department is moving to accelerate contracting and production for the fighter despite the persistence of technical and reliability issues disclosed in the current phase of development testing.
Those issues include the increasing number of planes that are down awaiting spare parts, difficulties with the electro-optical targeting system and flaws in launching air-to-air missiles and GPS-guided air-to-ground munitions during weapons testing.
Last edited by MD-11forever on 01 Feb 2018, 16:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 » 24 Jan 2018, 10:13

Is that the sitting duck with a high price tag that our military want to acquire?
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by sn26567 » 24 Jan 2018, 12:13

Sabena Aerospace (Belgium) and Ignition! (Belgium) signed MOUs with Lockheed Martin (US) to develop further long-term partnerships for sustainment and training services.

Will that be enough to tilt the balance towards the F-35?
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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by eurojet » 24 Jan 2018, 13:34

Rafale, just as the Eurofighter, are designs from the 80’ies. Yes, combat proven, but in 20-30 years obsolete. It is like buying a Ford Mondeo Diesel 2.0 TDI today. Perfect for today, outdated in 10 years. F35 is bugged with problems (such as the A400M, BTW) today. Belgian Defence is wise not to be a first batch buyer, so by the time they take delivery of theirs, issues will be solved (which will hopefully be the case with the A400M as well). For the record, in its early days the F16 was also plagued with issues and was deemed a bad purchase (“see, the Mirage f1 is combat proven in Iraq” .. who still flies the Mirage F1 these days? I think SABCA has a contract to modify some old ones as missile targets … Of the f-16 some 4,000 are still flying and the last one came of the line some weeks ago) . UK, NL, NO, DK, IT usage of the F35 guarantees at least interoperability with a large series of similar partners, Rafale allows for one partner. Ordnance already available at BAF (AMRAAM, AIM9, GBU) fully capable with F35, not proven yet with Rafale. Heck, who else in NATO uses Rafale…? And as a voter, although abroad, I would strongly object to an overall “defence pact” with France, as proposed in the case of the Rafale deal. History and daily practise shows where we then end up, not a lot of fruitful credentials there... Dexia, Fortis anyone ...? where do I start? And not participating in the official RFP says enough, I assume some US laywers are already licking their lips to sue Belgian government if they chose Rafale which did not follow a precise RFP procedure. My projection: the file of replacement of the F16 will make the government fall and will lead to early elections, MR too bought in by the poster-kid EM

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by stratofreighter » 24 Jan 2018, 14:01

Federal Shutdown Forces US to Reveal Cost of F-35 Offer to Belgium
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... lgium.html
(Source: Defense Security Cooperation Agency; issued Jan 18, 2018)


WASHINGTON --- The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Belgium of thirty-four (34) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Conventional Take Off and Landing aircraft for an estimated cost of $6.53 billion.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of Belgium has requested to buy thirty-four (34) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft,
and -- thirty-eight (38) Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines (34 installed, 4 spares).

Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems;
Command, Control, Communications, Computer and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI);
Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS);
Full Mission Trainer;
Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities;
F-35 unique infrared flares;
Reprogramming center;
F-35 Performance Based Logistics;
software development/integration;
aircraft ferry and tanker support;
support equipment;
tools and test equipment; communications equipment;
spares and repair parts;
personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents;
U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services;
and other related elements of logistics and program support.

The estimated total case value is $6.53 billion.

This proposed sale of F-35s will provide Belgium with a credible defense capability to deter aggression in the region and ensure interoperability with U.S. forces.
The proposed sale will augment Belgium's operational aircraft inventory and enhance its air-to-air and air-to-ground self-defense capability.
Belgium will have no difficulty absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractors will be Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX; and
Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, East Hartford, CT.

This proposal is being offered in the context of a competition.

If the proposal is accepted, it is expected that offset agreements will be required.
All offsets are defined in negotiations between the Purchaser and the contractor.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Belgium involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical reviews/support, program management,
and training over the life of the program.

U.S. contractor representatives will be required in Belgium to conduct Contractor Engineering Technical Services (CETS) and Autonomic Logistics and Global Support (ALGS) for after-aircraft delivery.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... lgium.html
EDITOR’S NOTE At today’s rate, the $6.53 billion cost of the 34 F-35s offered to Belgium equates to 5.33 billion euros, which is 48% higher than the 3.6 billion euro budget that Belgium has allocated to buy its new fighters.
A spokesman for Belgian Defense Minister Steven Vandeput told Belga news agency that the cost figure was “premature,” and that the final price would be determined once the ministry’s own experts have evaluated the Best And Final Offers (BAFO) due on Feb. 14.
In fact, Vandeput’s spokesman might well have been referring to the announcement itself as being premature, which it was.
Lockheed and the DCSA were undoubtedly hoping to keep the price under wraps until after the Feb. 14 deadline for the BAFO.

However, it was the prospect of the shutdown of the US Federal Government on Friday night that prompted the DSCA to issue its notification of Congressional approval. In fact, the DCSA has shut down, and its website as well – which is why the above notification is dated Jan. 18.
This notification also confirms the unit cost of an F-35A is $190 million – over twice the $85 million price that Lockheed is still claiming – and which is very close to the $206 million that we determined for Lot 5 aircraft being delivered in 2017.
And those $190 million do not include the cost of ground equipment and weapons – both things that are required for a warplane to fly combat missions.

So far, governments in Italy, Norway, Denmark and the UK swallowed the Pentagon’s bait, along with its hook, line and sinker, but they did not know the true cost of the planes they were buying.
Even the UK government, which is the largest non-US F-35 partner, still cannot tell Parliament how much they cost.

But now,
as Belgium is in the unique position of knowing the true price of all three candidates before it signs an order, Vandeput and the government cabinet will be able to show how good negotiators they are.)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... lgium.html
http://airnieuws.nl updates per 15 May 2018: Fokker, Amsterdam Schiphol, etc. . ;)

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida » 02 Feb 2018, 23:03

eurojet wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 13:34
Rafale, just as the Eurofighter, are designs from the 80’ies. Yes, combat proven, but in 20-30 years obsolete. It is like buying a Ford Mondeo Diesel 2.0 TDI today. Perfect for today, outdated in 10 years. F35 is bugged with problems (such as the A400M, BTW) today. Belgian Defence is wise not to be a first batch buyer, so by the time they take delivery of theirs, issues will be solved (which will hopefully be the case with the A400M as well). For the record, in its early days the F16 was also plagued with issues and was deemed a bad purchase (“see, the Mirage f1 is combat proven in Iraq” .. who still flies the Mirage F1 these days? I think SABCA has a contract to modify some old ones as missile targets … Of the f-16 some 4,000 are still flying and the last one came of the line some weeks ago) . UK, NL, NO, DK, IT usage of the F35 guarantees at least interoperability with a large series of similar partners, Rafale allows for one partner. Ordnance already available at BAF (AMRAAM, AIM9, GBU) fully capable with F35, not proven yet with Rafale. Heck, who else in NATO uses Rafale…? And as a voter, although abroad, I would strongly object to an overall “defence pact” with France, as proposed in the case of the Rafale deal. History and daily practise shows where we then end up, not a lot of fruitful credentials there... Dexia, Fortis anyone ...? where do I start? And not participating in the official RFP says enough, I assume some US laywers are already licking their lips to sue Belgian government if they chose Rafale which did not follow a precise RFP procedure. My projection: the file of replacement of the F16 will make the government fall and will lead to early elections, MR too bought in by the poster-kid EM
Excellent post (and analysis).

(Apart from the last sentence, I don't think (hope) the govt will fall over this. I hope all politicians are smart enough to realise the only valid option is the F-35)

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Koltchak » 13 Feb 2018, 15:11

eurojet wrote:
24 Jan 2018, 13:34
Rafale, just as the Eurofighter, are designs from the 80’ies. Yes, combat proven, but in 20-30 years obsolete. It is like buying a Ford Mondeo Diesel 2.0 TDI today. Perfect for today, outdated in 10 years. F35 is bugged with problems (such as the A400M, BTW) today. Belgian Defence is wise not to be a first batch buyer, so by the time they take delivery of theirs, issues will be solved (which will hopefully be the case with the A400M as well). For the record, in its early days the F16 was also plagued with issues and was deemed a bad purchase (“see, the Mirage f1 is combat proven in Iraq” .. who still flies the Mirage F1 these days? I think SABCA has a contract to modify some old ones as missile targets … Of the f-16 some 4,000 are still flying and the last one came of the line some weeks ago) . UK, NL, NO, DK, IT usage of the F35 guarantees at least interoperability with a large series of similar partners, Rafale allows for one partner. Ordnance already available at BAF (AMRAAM, AIM9, GBU) fully capable with F35, not proven yet with Rafale. Heck, who else in NATO uses Rafale…? And as a voter, although abroad, I would strongly object to an overall “defence pact” with France, as proposed in the case of the Rafale deal. History and daily practise shows where we then end up, not a lot of fruitful credentials there... Dexia, Fortis anyone ...? where do I start? And not participating in the official RFP says enough, I assume some US laywers are already licking their lips to sue Belgian government if they chose Rafale which did not follow a precise RFP procedure. My projection: the file of replacement of the F16 will make the government fall and will lead to early elections, MR too bought in by the poster-kid EM
To put it bluntly: what a crap analysis... You even lack the basic knowledge about Rafale/Typhoon weapons integration. Go check, read and learn before writing please.

And being forced to use the Dexia and Fortis stories say a lot about how you have no point at all.

Rafale/Typhoon are no "wunderwaffen" so is the F-35A: two of them are well established and proven airplanes, the other is a massively overpriced white elephant with nearly no interest for Belgium. Running cost are massive, heavy maintenance must be done abroad, everything must be approved by ALIS (so your hands aren't free to use what you paid for!). The only positive thing with the F-35A is a closer cooperation with Dutch air force (which, I must remind, have difficulties paying for the 3 last ones ordered as they are far more expensive than originally expected!)

But hell yeah, what a "good choice"... :mrgreen:

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by lumumba » 13 Feb 2018, 15:30

I have no knowledge at all but in my opinion the Rafale is the best choice...
I also think we have to start or own European army with or own plane's etc...
I now it's not an argument but if military it's wise in the European project than yes,anyway Belgium army today is not much it can only be something in a total European army.

One thing I hope that there will be no corruption here.....that's not a given.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by Boavida » 13 Feb 2018, 23:49

Yeah, let's buy a previous generation aircraft conceived in the 80's... and let's fly with it the coming 30 years...

Talking about 'future proof'...

It's like buying a Toyota Corolla in a world where Tesla cars are developed.

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Re: Which future fighter jet for Belgian Defence?

Post by cathay belgium » 14 Feb 2018, 02:14

Hi,

If you have money for a Corolla buy a Corolla , if you don’t have money for a Tesla then .. ;)

Better take care of your family first before buying fancy cars a good husband would say !

CXB.

Besides living in europe I say Europe first like some might say ...
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