Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RoMax »

They are talking here about the deliveries of the new A320neo's. Currently ONLY Lufthansa itself and Swiss are confirmed to get these (Lufthansa already has them and Swiss will follow in the near future). For all other members of the group, the split and delivery schedule has not been confirmed whatsoever. In the meantime while LH/LX get the neo's, they free up older A320's that are fully or largely paid of by the group and still have lots of life left in them. Normal that they are reshuffled throughout the group.

Both Lufthansa itself and Eurowings/Germanwings, the big "chouchou" of LHG, still operate quite some of the oldest active A320's worldwide, from the late -80's and early -90's. The oldest A320 of SN is from 2001 and some A319's are a bit older but unlikely to see a (significant) extension of their current leasing terms.

Both Swiss and Austrian got quite old aircraft in the early years after take-over as well. The Fokkers of OS were not replaced by shiny factory new aircraft but instead they got 2009-2012 built Embraers from LH. The latest 2 777's that OS got (in 2014 and just 2 weeks ago) are built respectively in 1998 and 2001. Their oldest is from 1997 and their newest 2007. Their 767 fleet is even worse with the oldest from 1991 and the newest from 2000. Their oldest A320's are from 1998 (they got 2 from LH from 2012 in 2016, all the rest is 2008 or older). The A319's are a bit better all from 2004-2006. The A321's they have just like LH itself still A321-100's from 95/96 and then a few -200's from 98 and 01. All the Q400's vary from 1998 to 2010.
All in all, OS is not bulking from the shiny new aircraft either. With the newest being 2009-2012 built E195's and A320's that came from Lufthansa.

Even Swiss, most of their A320's are from the period 1995-1998 (and then 5 new from Airbus since 2011). All the A319's are from 1996/7 and most of the A321's (including some -100's) are from 1995-1999 except 3 brand new since 2010. And despite their new widebodies, they still decided to retrofit 5 A343's with all new cabins. An investment which you don't make unless you plan to keep the aircraft for at least another 5 years (more likely 6-8) otherwise that's an investment which doesn't pay-off.

So please stop being so dramatic about SN's fleet age... New aircraft will come when they are needed and considered the best possible investment. If SN is better of for now with much cheaper 2nd hand aircraft that are still much newer than much of LHG's "originally new delivered" fleet, who cares. To me it seems very logical that there are several tens of aircraft that should be replaced first in the group as they are older than most of SN's fleet and put in the divisions that generate the highest financial returns.

Looking at average fleet ages doesn't tell you anything about exact ages per aircraft, running lease contracts (if applicable), etc.

And btw, before someone says "oh so they'll get 1990-built A320's now". No, some will just leave, others will move in the group. Replacements are also dependent on more than just fleet age. Sometimes they'll prefer to replace an 2015-built A320 with a neo (instead of one which is much older) to move it to another member in the group (spreading aircraft that are not yet fully paid off, while keeping cheap old ladies in the fleet as long as fuel prices don't peak too much).

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Indeed Romax is right, and you better understand from now that there isn’t something like Brussels Airlines anymore fleetwise...
SN is just a paint on a plane :)
For fleet you have to think Lufthansa groupwise... !
I have flown last month a 26! Years old A320 with Germanwings-Eurowings !
And some A321-100 !
As I tought Blue Air was bad lol !
SN will get some new one but guess then it will be in the A340-300 livery like In SN DUS operations !
So be careful what you wish for ;)

CXB
New types flown 2022.. A339

JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by JustPlanes »

Boavida wrote: 28 Jan 2018, 15:29
JustPlanes wrote: 26 Jan 2018, 06:09 SN will take the old A320s from LH ;)
Wow, so again not a single new aircraft for SN. They can use the old ones as the others receive brand new ones... The way SN is treated within the LH Group is starting to look like bullying.

I haven't seen one single action taken by LH that suggests that they take SN and its future as a separate airline (within the group) seriously. I fear the worst for the future...
They seem to only take Swiss and Eurowings seriously...
With Swiss they are getting new planes for short, medium and long haul... C series, Neos and 777s... While SN is getting old A320s, old A330s and old A340s... the only few new planes are the ones operated by Cityjet...
Swiss is also expanding Intercontinental service... while SN's only Intercontinental expansion is on behalf of Eurowings...maybe things change in the future but for now its vey clear where LH's priorities are... and its not in Brussels!
If I was Belgium I would be concerned about tourism and if I was Brussels Airport I would be concerned about increasing connection traffic... and its not more flights to Catania or Skiathos that will do anything for either... Belgium needs an airline that can take care of its country and its main airport... not the interests of Germany and its national airline. Sorry!

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by CTBke »

JustPlanes wrote: 29 Jan 2018, 06:20
Boavida wrote: 28 Jan 2018, 15:29
JustPlanes wrote: 26 Jan 2018, 06:09 SN will take the old A320s from LH ;)
Wow, so again not a single new aircraft for SN. They can use the old ones as the others receive brand new ones... The way SN is treated within the LH Group is starting to look like bullying.

I haven't seen one single action taken by LH that suggests that they take SN and its future as a separate airline (within the group) seriously. I fear the worst for the future...
They seem to only take Swiss and Eurowings seriously...
With Swiss they are getting new planes for short, medium and long haul... C series, Neos and 777s... While SN is getting old A320s, old A330s and old A340s... the only few new planes are the ones operated by Cityjet...
Swiss is also expanding Intercontinental service... while SN's only Intercontinental expansion is on behalf of Eurowings...maybe things change in the future but for now its vey clear where LH's priorities are... and its not in Brussels!
If I was Belgium I would be concerned about tourism and if I was Brussels Airport I would be concerned about increasing connection traffic... and its not more flights to Catania or Skiathos that will do anything for either... Belgium needs an airline that can take care of its country and its main airport... not the interests of Germany and its national airline. Sorry!
there is one.. called TUIfly , they fly from all Belgian airports
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JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by JustPlanes »

CTBke wrote: 29 Jan 2018, 11:55
JustPlanes wrote: 29 Jan 2018, 06:20
Boavida wrote: 28 Jan 2018, 15:29

Wow, so again not a single new aircraft for SN. They can use the old ones as the others receive brand new ones... The way SN is treated within the LH Group is starting to look like bullying.

I haven't seen one single action taken by LH that suggests that they take SN and its future as a separate airline (within the group) seriously. I fear the worst for the future...
They seem to only take Swiss and Eurowings seriously...
With Swiss they are getting new planes for short, medium and long haul... C series, Neos and 777s... While SN is getting old A320s, old A330s and old A340s... the only few new planes are the ones operated by Cityjet...
Swiss is also expanding Intercontinental service... while SN's only Intercontinental expansion is on behalf of Eurowings...maybe things change in the future but for now its vey clear where LH's priorities are... and its not in Brussels!
If I was Belgium I would be concerned about tourism and if I was Brussels Airport I would be concerned about increasing connection traffic... and its not more flights to Catania or Skiathos that will do anything for either... Belgium needs an airline that can take care of its country and its main airport... not the interests of Germany and its national airline. Sorry!
there is one.. called TUIfly , they fly from all Belgian airports

Yes TUI Belgium does an outstanding job for Belgians (and some surrounding countries( flying them on trips out of Belgium... and probably to some degree bringing some tourists to Belgium... but I'm talking an airline that brings people to Belgium from all over the world.... and that connects them to points beyond Brussels through BRU Airport... TUI is more of a point to point airline... so while they're doing a fantastic job they're not a national airline like SN should be... if SN ever became Eurowings TUI should really take over but its not really the way their business is set up and as they say if it ain't broke, don't fix it.... Sabena was doing that very well in its later years... When I worked in Boston we filled a 250 seat airplane that had an average of 100 people going to Brussels and 150 that were connecting onwards... and we did that from a bunch of cities around the USA every day... now with just JFK and then IAD in summer which are both already served by other airlines there isn't much of that going on so tourism to Belgium is not what it could be (loss of money for the country) and connections through Brussels are as low as they can be (loss for the BRU Airport and the country)... nowadays people connect with Icelandair, WOW Air, Norwegian, Turkish and all other European airlines for trips to Europe... and if its beyond Europe its all of those airlines plus Emirates, Etihad, Qatar etc... but Sabena used to come up as an option whereas Brussels Airlines nowadays does not... just saying... if they're happy like this then no worries.... but I'm guessing at this point they really belong to LH and LH will dictate what they want them to do and not.... and seems like the priority now is to make sure Eurowings goes well and grows following the shutdown of Air Berlin....

teach
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by teach »

JustPlanes wrote: 30 Jan 2018, 06:30 When I worked in Boston we filled a 250 seat airplane that had an average of 100 people going to Brussels and 150 that were connecting onwards... and we did that from a bunch of cities around the USA every day...
Yes, and they were losing money hand over fist doing so.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Passenger »

Flying Scout wrote: 30 Jan 2018, 17:40 Indeed. Filling a plane is not that difficult. Filling a plane and making money is a total other question.
Actually, JustPlanes is right. The yield for Boston was pretty good for Sabena at that time. Or should I say revenu iso yield, because yield management wasn't developped yet like nowadays. Main reasons: less operating costs and little or no competition on the Belgian market.

Just like Johannesburg versus Kinshasa: Johannesburg was loss making because competition was fierce, whilst for Kinshasa, Sabena was king of the world. Example: when Sabena could sell Johannesburg Y-class for 20.000 BEF, they could sell Kinshasa for 40.000 BEF. The crew costs at Kinshasa were more expensive indeed then near Jo'burg. And luggage was 20 kg JNB versus FIH 30 kg (read: every passenger had at least 35 kgs).

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by convair »

Passenger wrote: 30 Jan 2018, 19:20
Flying Scout wrote: 30 Jan 2018, 17:40 Indeed. Filling a plane is not that difficult. Filling a plane and making money is a total other question.
Actually, JustPlanes is right. The yield for Boston was pretty good for Sabena at that time. Or should I say revenu iso yield, because yield management wasn't developped yet like nowadays. Main reasons: less operating costs and little or no competition on the Belgian market.

Just like Johannesburg versus Kinshasa: Johannesburg was loss making because competition was fierce, whilst for Kinshasa, Sabena was king of the world. Example: when Sabena could sell Johannesburg Y-class for 20.000 BEF, they could sell Kinshasa for 40.000 BEF. The crew costs at Kinshasa were more expensive indeed then near Jo'burg. And luggage was 20 kg JNB versus FIH 30 kg (read: every passenger had at least 35 kgs).
I think SN should definitely restart Boston.There are about 4 million people living in and around Boston and it offers a lot of cultural, historical and tourist attractions, enough to make it a successful destination. Moreover, no airline is currently offering that destination, so it should be profitable. Let's not wait for someone else to start it.

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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by nordikcam »

convair wrote: 30 Jan 2018, 21:44 I think SN should definitely restart Boston.There are about 4 million people living in and around Boston and it offers a lot of cultural, historical and tourist attractions, enough to make it a successful destination. Moreover, no airline is currently offering that destination, so it should be profitable. Let's not wait for someone else to start it.
They need an aircraft...one of the new ones to come ? BOS and DEL !!

DannyVDB
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by DannyVDB »

I think they will add more frequencies to African destinations first (see statement CEO in b-inspired). makes sense to me. Especially by splitting routes such as Dakar-Banjul and Dakar-Conakry ...

You are right on Boston. It is also a major research centre and the business traffic is amongst others in that field (researchers and academia are travelling a lot :D ). On the other hand, Sabena was indeed successful on that route (sorry just remember, don't have evidence for that), but in the meantime many others started to connect Boston to Europe ...

Just my two cents
Danny
Last edited by DannyVDB on 31 Jan 2018, 06:39, edited 1 time in total.

JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by JustPlanes »

teach wrote: 30 Jan 2018, 07:29
JustPlanes wrote: 30 Jan 2018, 06:30 When I worked in Boston we filled a 250 seat airplane that had an average of 100 people going to Brussels and 150 that were connecting onwards... and we did that from a bunch of cities around the USA every day...
Yes, and they were losing money hand over fist doing so.
Yes thats bologna! If you saw the cargo amounts and money we put on each flight not to mention full flights there is no way they were losing money! In the winter, absolutely pax wise they were... but not during the 7 summer months...
And keep in mind the big picture... back when we had a nonstop to Brussels there were 100 people traveling to Belgium every day... a good number of them tourists... (money for both BRU Airport and Belgium)... today 0

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by DeltaWiskey »

A330 MSN 915 has officially been transferred to Brussels Airlines earlier this week. Ferry flight in about a month.

RTM
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by RTM »

SNJ is on its way to Tenerife for its first SN operational flight.

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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by sn26567 »

In an interview to La Libre Belgique today, Brussels Airport CEO Arnaud Feist said that the Eurowings people told him they looked at the possibility to acquire A321LR aircraft for Brussels Airlines to operate some US flights (like Aer Lingus) and possibly also flights to some African destinations.
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convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by convair »

sn26567 wrote: 09 Feb 2018, 21:12 In an interview to La Libre Belgique today, Brussels Airport CEO Arnaud Feist said that the Eurowings people told him they looked at the possibility to acquire A321LR aircraft for Brussels Airlines to operate some US flights (like Aer Lingus) and possibly also flights to some African destinations.
That wouldn't be a bad idea, if they equip them with a real Business class!

Btw, SN is using its "normal" A320s for non-stop flights to Boa Vista (same distance as Dakar) and were occasionnally using their A319s non-stop to Dakar when they were short of available A330s.

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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by crew1990 »

convair wrote: 09 Feb 2018, 21:33
sn26567 wrote: 09 Feb 2018, 21:12 In an interview to La Libre Belgique today, Brussels Airport CEO Arnaud Feist said that the Eurowings people told him they looked at the possibility to acquire A321LR aircraft for Brussels Airlines to operate some US flights (like Aer Lingus) and possibly also flights to some African destinations.
That wouldn't be a bad idea, if they equip them with a real Business class!

Btw, SN is using its "normal" A320s for non-stop flights to Boa Vista (same distance as Dakar) and were occasionnally using their A319s non-stop to Dakar when they were short of available A330s.
SN fly with a normal A320 as there is no C-class needed, this is a pure holiday destination.
They only operated A319 to Dakar for a short period when Senegal removed the fifth flight freedom. They never fly A319 to DKR otherwise, they cancel the flight or if there is availability, they wet lease an aircraft from Hi Fly or Wamos.

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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by CTBke »

first pics of 'Brussels Airlines' 1st A340-300 (in EW colours) but with Belgian flag and reg

https://www.airteamimages.com/airbus-a3 ... 98407.html

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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by sn26567 »

Brussels Airlines took delivery of one A330-300, serial 915, ex-Cathay Pacific B-LAH.
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by CTBke »

sn26567 wrote: 13 Feb 2018, 00:06 Brussels Airlines took delivery of one A330-300, serial 915, ex-Cathay Pacific B-LAH.
due to arrive in BRU and get it's Belgian reg
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by TLspotting »

CTBke wrote: 13 Feb 2018, 13:51
sn26567 wrote: 13 Feb 2018, 00:06 Brussels Airlines took delivery of one A330-300, serial 915, ex-Cathay Pacific B-LAH.
due to arrive in BRU and get it's Belgian reg
When ?
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

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