Brussels region noise regulation

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Magiktrix
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Magiktrix »

You have to make the difference between the "canal route" aka CIV2D and the left turn normal routing for 4 engine aircraft.

The canal route is a week-end ONLY route for aircraft going to exit belgian airspace via Chièvres. Its used by any type of aircraft.
In the case of the left turn departures normally you turn at 1700ft, except 4 engine aircraft who must climb to 4000ft or 8nm from BUB whichever is later before turning left. And that is everyday.

From the ground it might look the same but its not.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Thanks, @Magiktrix! More studying of the AIP is in order, apparently. No end to learning. Regarding "4-engine": it did strike me that, apart from B747's, I often saw C130's climbing out more or less over the canal, on weekdays.

Magiktrix
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Magiktrix »

Military aircraft do almost whatever they want. Most of the time C130 are flying VFR and do not comply with anything. No limits in bank angle, no limits in speeds or noise or whatever a civilian airplane must comply with.
During my military obligation in the 15th wing i was lucky enough to make a flight in the cockpit of a C130, i can tell you, i have never seen pine tree so close of an aircraft ;-)

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Confirm that from the other side: I've never seen a plane so close to my pine trees as the BAF C130's! :)

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Yuqu12 »

Those C130's are indeed flying adorably low, I can hear them coming and I had once that the trees were moving because of the fly-over of a C130 :D

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by luchtzak »

sn26567 wrote: 14 Dec 2016, 20:49
AIRMARSHAL wrote:A lot of headwind for Brussels Airport 2040 project...and as they showed on the evening news this is mainly thanks to not even a handfull of "politicians" from a still moderate sized European town.
Our homepage has published the information hereunder, which should do a lot to appease the spirits:

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/brussel ... s-airport/

Jan Grauls is a seasoned diplomat who has worked as Belgian ambassador to the UN (that helps). He is able to put everybody around a table to find a consensus in which all parties gain something, lose something else and are finally satisfied (except for a few extremists). But at the 2040 horizon...
Apparently Jan Grauls left the forum 2040 after one month!
http://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaar ... 1496989816

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by luchtzak »

Brussels Court of First Instance has ruled today: https://www.aviation24.be/airports/brussel ... ing-route/

Passenger
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

For those who sometimes say that our politicians do nothing / know nothing about Brussels Airport: enjoy this document that has been filed today: "Het preferentieel baangebruik op Brussel-Nationaal van 2 tot 10 oktober 2016" - Utilisation préférentielle des pistes à l'aéroport de Bruxelles-National durant la période du 2 au 10 octobre 2016".

Warning: it's a pdf of 63 MB - 300 pages:
http://www.dekamer.be/FLWB/PDF/54/2669/54K2669001.pdf

Reference page De Kamer - La Chambre:
http://www.dekamer.be/kvvcr/showpage.cf ... ierID=2669

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by luchtzak »

Airlines that violated the Brussels Region noise standards have been sued and that’s a first!

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/bruss ... s-a-first/

Passenger
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

luchtzak wrote: 20 Oct 2017, 19:14 Airlines that violated the Brussels Region noise standards have been sued and that’s a first!

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/bruss ... s-a-first/
Sued and condemned...
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/pr ... ~aa6c8ff4/

Passenger
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

Interview with minister Bellot in L'Echo today:

"...Tant qu’à évoquer Bruxelles, évoquons un autre dossier sensible du cartable ministériel: le survol de Bruxelles. "Il faut arrêter de croire que la solution à ce problème sera juridique. La solution passe par un grand audit indépendant, soit une étude d’incidence qui va tout objectiver. C’est de cela qu’on a besoin. Elle va permettre d’avoir une vision claire, objective et transparente des conséquences de l’utilisation de l’aéroport en terme de nuisances sonores. Et ce, indépendamment des frontières linguistiques et administratives. On fera cela avec un bureau indépendant et des recommandations seront formulées." Bien. Mais quand? "Aux Pays-Bas, il a fallu deux ans et demi pour règler les problèmes de l’aéroport de Schiphol". En clair, n’attendez pas de changement structurel sur ce sujet avant les élections..."

Translated by Aviation24.be:

At the start of 2017 Minister of Mobility François Bellot (MR) wanted to force a breakthrough in the discussion on aircraft noise over the Brussels Region. But that consultation ended without any progress: no compromise solution was put on the table. “There will be no structural solution for the noise pollution at Brussels Airport in 2019. An international agency for research has to deal with the issue in order to guarantee ‘total independence’.” Bellot refers in the interview to the Netherlands, where “it took two years and a half to solve the problems at Schiphol Amsterdam“. An international “independent” study must “objectively” look at the sitation. The minister considers the same time frame as is feasible in the Netherlands.

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/bruss ... sues-2019/

Nonsense from Bellot! The Amsterdam Schiphol Airport issue was not about night restrictions, but about general growth for the airport ("what is the maximum number of movements?"), and as a consequence a 24/24 dispertion plan ("when and how do we switch the runway use?"). And indeed, it took some years to define that. But meanwhile, all flights were allowed to operate as scheduled and there was not one single aircraft/airline that was fined.

If Bellot really wants to solve the problem, he should officially order that "international report" and publish his decision (example during the weekly press release by the government). Brussels Airport and affected airlines can then go to court with that order-decision and ask for a temporary halt to the fines till that international study is finalized.

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by luchtzak »

Minister Bellot already tried to force a solution at the start of 2017, I think he knows that a solution is not straight forward hence delaying the entire thing ...

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/bruss ... -progress/

Passenger
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

luchtzak wrote: 09 Dec 2017, 16:31 Minister Bellot already tried to force a solution at the start of 2017, I think he knows that a solution is not straight forward hence delaying the entire thing ...
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/bruss ... -progress/
That failed mediation dates from 20th February 2017: that's almost 10 months ago. And only today, the honourable minister concludes that he needs a study to solve the problem? One would almost think that Bellot wants that cargo airlines move from Brussels to... Yes.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by sn26567 »

A solution will not be decided before the 2019 elections: too many parties risk losing face if that solution doesn't suit their electors.

Right after a new government has been created is the right time to implement a decision on the basis of an international INDEPENDENT experts study, a decision to which all parties in the government will have to abide. Tempers will then have 5 years to cool down.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Acid-drop
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Acid-drop »

One would almost think that Bellot wants that cargo airlines move from Brussels to... Yes
Nice one calimero :)
Except we see the opposite, all cargo airlines came back to BRU as if there never was a noise issue.
Airlines chose the airport.
Bellot has nothing to do : there is currently no issue.
And everybody knows we dont do anything proactively in this country.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by jan_olieslagers »

everybody knows we dont do anything proactively in this country
Sadly totally correct.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Passenger »

Acid-drop wrote: 10 Dec 2017, 12:59 Bellot has nothing to do : there is currently no issue.
No issue??? Airlines are penalized by the Brussels Capital Region because there is no federal aviation law. Airlines are penalized when they respect the night restrictions for Brussels Airport.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote: 10 Dec 2017, 13:16
Acid-drop wrote: 10 Dec 2017, 12:59 Bellot has nothing to do : there is currently no issue.
No issue??? Airlines are penalized by the Brussels Capital Region because there is no federal aviation law. Airlines are penalized when they respect the night restrictions for Brussels Airport.
You have to understand one thing Passenger the Brussels Region will not change there way of thinking.

Brussels will allow to be overflow in daytime but not at night because it's a city with big population etc...

One solution could be to do the same political solution than they did in Liege with Erps Kwerps and Kortenberg or if possible also with Kraainem but here I think that the population density is already to high!
That is to buy the houses or soundproofing it etc...
Than you can make plane's taking off over to this direction.
If there is no solution I can imagine that night flights will have to stop at Brussels Airport.
This airport is to close to the city to work at night and when this independent analysis from this future group will be done I'm sure there conclusions will be the same!

But where I'm agree with you is that it's a political game,every government push the decision to the next elections because they now there is no solution without hurting....
Last edited by lumumba on 16 Dec 2017, 15:40, edited 1 time in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by Yuqu12 »

The first thing to do is make the federal government the decider on the noise restrictions in the whole country, then make a law on the base of an independent study.

SR20
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Re: Brussels region noise regulation

Post by SR20 »

Belgocontrol boosts preferred Brussels runways

http://www.airtrafficmanagement.net/201 ... unway-use/

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