Brussels Airlines in 2017

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Magiktrix
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Magiktrix »

AIRMARSHAL wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 18:09 Are they talking about A340-300 or the more recent A340-600 as LH is phasing out the latter one according to wiki?
A340-300 and these aircrafts are not coming from LH but from Cityline.

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Yuqu12 wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 17:11 Indeed, and doesn't this mean that if a flight is delayed/cancelled, the costs are for SN?
Normally, according to the law, it is the operator, i.e. Eurowings (the flights will operate under an EW-flight number), unless agreed otherwise in a contract. To avoid confusion, most ACMI contracts have a clause who takes responsibility of EC261.

sukhoi
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by sukhoi »

its verry simple why brusselsairlines will fly from dusseldorf many belgian people fly from dusseldorf and many german people from the area dusseldorf fly from brussels if eurowings sunexpress fly from dus to jfk is that competition white brussels airlines and lose brusselsairlines passengers if brussels airlines fly from dus is that no competition for brussels and more win for lh group because others long distance destination from eurowings are flying via sunexpres (50 % Lufthansa 50 % turkish airlines ) and why are the flights not operated by lh him self ? verry simply lh is quality society brussels half low cost and eurowings is low cost and if brussels fly to lax from dus white a340 is the change big the they olso fly from bru to lax white the a340 and then an rotation white a330 to new york from dus mayby in the future and mayby takes brussels olso the other long distances destination from eurowings from sunexpres over the carraiben destinations and are rotations white bru possible. Were Brussels airlines and Thomas cook not in the future planning to flying to the caribaibenn in the future is possible and verry simply if brussels do al the long distance from eurowings.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by sn26567 »

Yuqu12 wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 18:19
AIRMARSHAL wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 18:09 Are they talking about A340-300 or the more recent A340-600 as LH is phasing out the latter one according to wiki?
The article of flightlevel.be states it'll be the A340-300.
Also the more detailed Aviation24.be article ;)
André
ex Sabena #26567

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Poiu »

sukhoi wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 19:44 its verry simple why brusselsairlines will fly from dusseldorf
SN will NOT fly from DUS, they will operate aircraft on behalf of EW. (In the same way as Cityjet operates SSJ on behalf of SN)

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Poiu »

convair wrote: 17 Oct 2017, 18:15 Anyway, this is great news for SN!
Not sure if this is good news for SN, it could be the first step of SN being transformed into an ACMI operator on behalf of Eurowings.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Atlantis »

But where is the revenue for SN?? SN will have the costs as ACMI but the sales of the tickets will be completely for Eurowings :? SN has to deliver the crew and costs regarding planes etc but what is the financial benefit?

This smells like the Sabena/Swissair story when both were flying to the same destination (at about the same time) but only Swissair had the best financial benefits

PttU
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by PttU »

The same as where the benefit for CityJet is in their deal with SN... As ACMI-provider they get a fixed price and certainty. Or at least I'd hope ;)

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Darjeeling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Darjeeling »

This is no more, no less than a "chipotage" news about SN, once again...

Do you realize the scope of that news ? The open door it leaves for SN's crew ? And do you just realize what SN represents at the moment inside LH's group ? A potential ACMI provider to replace SunExpress... the "joint-venture" created with the turkish...
And this at a time when LH is set to launch a tender of up to 2.4€ billion to replace OS current fleet of 777/767 with A350s or B787s... no wonders SN will have to use second or third hands A333s for another 10-15 years...

There is a absolutely no added value, no gains for SN with that decision. Once again just a very dangerous open door (crew base can now be outsourced randomly). I'm very puzzled to see the lack of reaction from the unions. I guess they must have received some short term compensations to shut it up...

Duke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Duke »

Darjeeling wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 09:24 There is a absolutely no added value, no gains for SN with that decision. Once again just a very dangerous open door (crew base can now be outsourced randomly). I'm very puzzled to see the lack of reaction from the unions. I guess they must have received some short term compensations to shut it up...
I think it's good news for SN, as it gives SN pilots a lot of new opportunities.
Ok, maybe flying out of Düsseldorf, but Düsseldorf is not the end of the world I think?
On the other hand, less good news for spotters, as there will be no A340's in SN livery...

Regards,

Duke

RTM
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by RTM »

Atlantis wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 07:50 But where is the revenue for SN?? SN will have the costs as ACMI but the sales of the tickets will be completely for Eurowings :? SN has to deliver the crew and costs regarding planes etc but what is the financial benefit?
The revenue is quite obvious... Since it is ACMI, SN will get a fixed negociated amount per destination, or flight, or hour, or however they will negociate it. Meaning, even if they fly empty, SN is making money. In the meantime, they are expanding, and getting a better foothold in the LH group. Sounds like a good deal to me. Downside... we will probably rarely see these birds in BRU...

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travellover
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by travellover »

LH group/EW is obviously developping synergies. Not sure opening the door of DUS is a bad thing for SN. New crews will be hired. SN keep its L/H fleet and network at BRU. They could be developping and use an 11 A330 fleet at the same time during the replacement wave (maybe). Keeping in mind the seven A330-300 order aiming to replace their oldest birds. These planes will have belgian AOC, SN colours and be based at BRU. Not brand new factory ones nevertheless.
Cheers

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Atlantis »

RTM wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 11:34
Atlantis wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 07:50 But where is the revenue for SN?? SN will have the costs as ACMI but the sales of the tickets will be completely for Eurowings :? SN has to deliver the crew and costs regarding planes etc but what is the financial benefit?
The revenue is quite obvious... Since it is ACMI, SN will get a fixed negociated amount per destination, or flight, or hour, or however they will negociate it. Meaning, even if they fly empty, SN is making money. In the meantime, they are expanding, and getting a better foothold in the LH group. Sounds like a good deal to me. Downside... we will probably rarely see these birds in BRU...
Ok, thank you for the explanation RTM

PttU
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by PttU »

RTM wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 11:34
Atlantis wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 07:50 But where is the revenue for SN?? SN will have the costs as ACMI but the sales of the tickets will be completely for Eurowings :? SN has to deliver the crew and costs regarding planes etc but what is the financial benefit?
The revenue is quite obvious... Since it is ACMI, SN will get a fixed negociated amount per destination, or flight, or hour, or however they will negociate it. Meaning, even if they fly empty, SN is making money. In the meantime, they are expanding, and getting a better foothold in the LH group. Sounds like a good deal to me. Downside... we will probably rarely see these birds in BRU...
But I guess that's still to be discussed. And I don't know the influence LH has on the price negotiations between SN and EW for the ACMI-contract. Worst case: if SN is forced into a bad deal, it can negatively affect the other SN operations as well. But if it's a fair contract, it's indeed positive for SN to benefit from this deal.

ezis_bis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by ezis_bis »

But now SN *buys* 2 planes, even from LH, while it does not get the funds to buy planes themselves

If this money coming from SN pockets, this is another Swiss were SN money gets used in DUS
This of course depends on the small letters in the contract, but this does feel very fair

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Boavida »

Darjeeling wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 09:24
And this at a time when LH is set to launch a tender of up to 2.4€ billion to replace OS current fleet of 777/767 with A350s or B787s... no wonders SN will have to use second or third hands A333s for another 10-15 years...
This says it all, I guess... Not a single new aircraft for SN, and it isn't even sure the airline can keep its name/identity. So sad. LH bought SN to kill it off.

RTM
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by RTM »

PttU wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 12:55 But I guess that's still to be discussed. And I don't know the influence LH has on the price negotiations between SN and EW for the ACMI-contract. Worst case: if SN is forced into a bad deal, it can negatively affect the other SN operations as well. But if it's a fair contract, it's indeed positive for SN to benefit from this deal.
True, but it is in no ones interest to force SN into a contract they loose money on... LH is funding the start-up and expansion of EW, so leave the risk there, rather than create a situation where you will also have to help SN on the same deal.
ezis_bis wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 13:37 But now SN *buys* 2 planes, even from LH, while it does not get the funds to buy planes themselves

If this money coming from SN pockets, this is another Swiss were SN money gets used in DUS
This of course depends on the small letters in the contract, but this does feel very fair
SN will be responsible for paying the leasing costs. But those should be covered by the ACMI contract.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Yuqu12 »

You can also ask the question whether SN has still to pay that much for birds with 4 engines which are all 16 years or even older. In the worst case SN "buys" 2 343's which are 20 and 21 years old. I'm not so sure whether they'll be that expensive to "buy". Anyone who has an idea about the cost of such old birds?

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Brussels Airlines will not buy the aircraft. They will be leased from the LH Group. It's all very hypothetical what LH will charge to SN, as SN will charge it back to Eurowings. What comes around goes around.

AirOpinion
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by AirOpinion »

DeltaWiskey wrote: 18 Oct 2017, 17:05 Brussels Airlines will not buy the aircraft. They will be leased from the LH Group. It's all very hypothetical what LH will charge to SN, as SN will charge it back to Eurowings. What comes around goes around.
What does it matter? Brussels Airlines is LH Group, no?

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