Alitalia saved by the Government and reborn as ITA Airways

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
User avatar
luchtzak
Posts: 11734
Joined: 18 Sep 2002, 00:00
Location: Hofstade, Zemst - Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by luchtzak »

sn26567 wrote: 17 Nov 2017, 14:54
luchtzak wrote: 17 Nov 2017, 14:41
sn26567 wrote: 17 Nov 2017, 14:13It should be noted that the rumours reported by the media over the past days on alleged details of the offer presented by Lufthansa are to be considered groundless.
Groundless ? :roll:
That's not what they are saying! The offer of Lufthansa is real, but the leaked details of that offer are groundless.
Groundless: not based on any good reason

Still ... I don't understand ;-)

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40827
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Lufthansa made an insufficient offer to the Italian government for the acquisition of Alitalia, said Minister of Transport Graziano Delrio.

Is he hoping somebody will make a better offer for a bankrupt airline?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Boeing767copilot
Posts: 1385
Joined: 13 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Boeing767copilot »

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/alita ... -net-loss/

Alitalia’s Special Commissioners during the today’s hearing at the Chamber of Deputies have presented the performance of the administrative management in the period between 1 June and 31 October 2017.
Total revenues amounted to € 1,432.9 million, the EBITDA was positive at € 73.9 million and the net result was negative by € 31.3 million. Excluding interest on the Government loan, the net result was negative by € 20.9 million.
The Company’s cash flow was equal to € 845 million on 31 October, 2017. Additionally, it should be noted that the financial resources available are calculated net of the deposit paid to the IATA and worth € 118 million as well as the deposits placed with banks for hedging transactions for a total value of € 29 million.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40827
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

EasyJet (UK) and private investment firm Cerberus (US) are reportedly seeking to form an alliance and bid for Alitalia, who is due to conduct further talks next week with Cerberus.

Lufthansa will not be alone...
André
ex Sabena #26567

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40827
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Italian government sets priorities in Alitalia sale

Italy's economic development minister says the top priority in evaluating offers for the bankrupt Alitalia airline is maintaining connections that bring tourists and business to the southern European nation.

Carlo Calenda has told private Italian TV La7 on Sunday that the second priority was ensuring as little public money as possible is spent in the deal, and the third is protecting workers.

Calenda said 8 billion euros of state money had been spent to keep Alitalia afloat and the result is "an airline that keeps getting smaller and more dysfunctional. ... If we had sold it to a big international player, we would have better service and we wouldn't have thrown away all this money."

The government aims to complete the sale of Alitalia by April.

Source: AP
André
ex Sabena #26567

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40827
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Alitalia sale agreement could be concluded within a month, said Transport Minister Graziano Delrio, adding that “interesting offers” had been made for the carrier.
André
ex Sabena #26567

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40827
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Alitalia, together with the Italian Government, reportedly will sign an agreement on the sale of the carrier to Lufthansa by 19 December 2017 for about US$353 million. The fleet of 120 aeroplanes is expected to be reduced to just over half.

Lufthansa should only acquire the operational unit of Alitalia.

As a network airline or a point-to-point airline?
André
ex Sabena #26567

convair
Posts: 1945
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by convair »

How many employees?
Anyway, I'm afraid playtime is over at AZ.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by RoMax »

sn26567 wrote: 11 Dec 2017, 20:32 Alitalia, together with the Italian Government, reportedly will sign an agreement on the sale of the carrier to Lufthansa by 19 December 2017 for about US$353 million. The fleet of 120 aeroplanes is expected to be reduced to just over half.

Lufthansa should only acquire the operational unit of Alitalia.

As a network airline or a point-to-point airline?
They said FCO would be their 5th 'major hub' (after FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE - yes unfortunately even compared to VIE, BRU is not as much of a hub as the others...), so normally a hub focussed operation. In terms of long haul I assume something in between VIE and ZRH ('main routes' + some more niche type routes that work well via FCO). In terms of short/medium-haul I don't know the FCO hub of AZ well enough to judge on that.

User avatar
cathay belgium
Posts: 2359
Joined: 18 Aug 2008, 00:17
Location: Lommel-Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Italian overseas will be known offcourse, new York , lax , gru, Caracas, Boston , male,..
More curious about their domestic services will be maintained or will we see a total FR fleet within Italy , guess Giovanni air could The new name od Ryanair Italy then lol

cXb
New types flown 2022.. A339

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40827
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 »

Ansett wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 14:44 I cannot imagine that EU competition authorities will allow LH to buy a substantial part of AZ.
Germany’s Lufthansa has offered 250 million euros to take on most of Alitalia’s fleet of aircraft and half of its staff, a source close to the matter said on Tuesday (19 Dec 2017).

Alitalia, which has made a profit only a few times in its 70-year history, was put under special administration earlier this year after staff rejected a plan to cut jobs and salaries.

Lufthansa is one of seven companies that submitted binding offers for Alitalia by Oct. 16.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alit ... SKBN1DE24E
André
ex Sabena #26567

sn-remember
Posts: 848
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn-remember »

I suspect it might end up as a scenario similar to the AB bankrupty, only a part of the operation being taken over by lh.
If they want to operate as a hub, the intra-italian sub-network from fco should somehow be kept ..
Outside fco, EW might take the operation over.
I am surprised AF/KL dropped the ball .. Of course they burned their fingers in the past but still this is a total take-over at stake, so a different scenario. What's the nuisance power of the unions in this context ? They should not be underrated ..

sn-remember
Posts: 848
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn-remember »

RoMax wrote: 11 Dec 2017, 21:17
They said FCO would be their 5th 'major hub' (after FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE - yes unfortunately even compared to VIE, BRU is not as much of a hub as the others...), so normally a hub focussed operation. In terms of long haul I assume something in between VIE and ZRH ('main routes' + some more niche type routes that work well via FCO). In terms of short/medium-haul I don't know the FCO hub of AZ well enough to judge on that.
Short/medium-hauls from fco are relatively strong. The long-hauls are already rather weak so I don't know where they will cut ..
I don't think VIE is a hub more than BRU .. In fact I think Bru has more future potential bcs it was insufficiently developped. If you compare the l/haul fleets, OS currently operate 11 W/bodies (6 B767-300 + 5 B777-200) while SN operate 10 w/bodies (4 A332 + 6 A333) ... So it all depends on the strategy the lh group will decide to follow .. I personally think BRU has a card to play and a role to acquire.

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by RoMax »

sn-remember wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 21:08 I don't think VIE is a hub more than BRU .. In fact I think Bru has more future potential bcs it was insufficiently developped. If you compare the l/haul fleets, OS currently operate 11 W/bodies (6 B767-300 + 5 B777-200) while SN operate 10 w/bodies (4 A332 + 6 A333) ... So it all depends on the strategy the lh group will decide to follow .. I personally think BRU has a card to play and a role to acquire.
VIE is a much bigger short/medium-haul hub for OS than BRU for SN. SN is 'gifted' with a stronger local market (which however also attracts more competition) and it's focus is much more on a proper mix of hub/network and point-to-point traffic while OS is more focused on connectivity. Is there more potential in BRU for a hub operation? Of course, but no need to start dreaming about a second ZRH or something. But ok, that's not the topic now, it was just a side comment in the reasoning on why LH says '5th hub' (which excludes BRU).

Again, I would size a FCO hub in terms of long haul between VIE and ZRH (closer to ZRH than VIE obviously). AZ especially has some valuable connections to Latin America (still a weak area for LH Group compared to IAG and AF-KL), besides the 'usual suspects' in Asia, North America and Africa (NBO and JNB to be resumed). I'm actually more dissapointed about the short/medium haul network that AZ still has, I had it in mind as being much larger as it seems to be now (both in terms of route network and capacity).

sn-remember
Posts: 848
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn-remember »

To my knowledge, AZ dropped NBO and JNB long ago, also LOS and ACC were dropped but more recently so ...
To Middle-East they have more weight than VIE or ZRH to places like CAI, AMM, IKA, BEY, ALG, CMN, TUN , etc none of which are currently served by LX to my knowledge.
In my view they should overweight LX i.t.o. trafic volume (and OS by far).
And Bru could/should have a hub future as well as Vie (as a side issue)

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by RoMax »

sn-remember wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 21:58 To my knowledge, AZ dropped NBO and JNB long ago, also LOS and ACC were dropped but more recently so ...
NBO and JNB are planned to be relaunched in spring 2018, both 4/week with A330.
sn-remember wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 21:58 To Middle-East they have more weight than VIE or ZRH to places like CAI, AMM, IKA, BEY, ALG, CMN, TUN , etc none of which are currently served by LX to my knowledge.
Indeed, although not new markets for LHG AZ would definitely improve its position there besides LH and to some extent OS (OS has a very strong position on some of those M/E markets, but is virtually absent in others and LX has a different focus in which those routes don't fit that well).
sn-remember wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 21:58 In my view they should overweight LX i.t.o. trafic volume (and OS by far).
In terms of long haul LX and AZ are close, but ZRH is the stronger global hub there. Overall volume FCO would exceed ZRH indeed due to short/medium haul. But AZ is also well past its top period on the short/medium haul segment and LHG would never be allowed to take over all of it.
sn-remember wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 21:58 And Bru could/should have a hub future as well as Vie (as a side issue)
BRU definitely has a hub future and it should and will grow. But percentage wise it will always remain more focused on the local market than FRA, MUC, ZRH, VIE and FCO and that's not necessarily a bad thing ;) But of course in particular for long haul a hub operation is simply essential. Just like EW will notice in DUS that if they don't offer a working feeding operation, it will be very difficult to survive on those new long haul routes which are of a total different breed than their current leisure long haul network out of CGN.

nordikcam
Posts: 1202
Joined: 24 Aug 2008, 10:22
Location: Uccle

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by nordikcam »

sn-remember wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 21:58
And Bru could/should have a hub future as well as Vie (as a side issue)
In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?

User avatar
RoMax
Posts: 4454
Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by RoMax »

nordikcam wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 23:10 In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?
Yes, but that in itself doesn't say anything about the hub size of BRU vs. VIE, at BRU there is much more competition. The market share of OS at VIE is a lot bigger than SN's at BRU. I'm not sure about the market share when including codeshare partners (in particular Star Alliance partners, with the focus on the word 'partners', so SAS or TK at BRU doesn't count as SN doesn't actively work together with them), but Im quite sure VIE is still quite a lot bigger than BRU 'as a hub', but that's mainly due to the large focus of OS on the short/medium haul hub network because in terms of long haul they are not quite impressive.

DannyVDB
Posts: 941
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by DannyVDB »

nordikcam wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 23:10
sn-remember wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 21:58
And Bru could/should have a hub future as well as Vie (as a side issue)
In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?
I don't think so. At least not in 2016. I think this year BRU might become a bit bigger, but it is not sure.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... in_Europe
23 Decrease 1 Austria Vienna International Vienna 22,775,054[13] 23,352,016[13] Increase2.5%
24 Increase 2 Portugal Lisbon Airport Lisbon 20,090,418[14] 22,449,289[14] Increase11.7%
25 Decrease 6 Belgium Brussels Airport Brussels 23,460,018[15] 21,818,418[15] Decrease7.0%
Last edited by DannyVDB on 20 Dec 2017, 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

DannyVDB
Posts: 941
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by DannyVDB »

RoMax wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 23:17
nordikcam wrote: 19 Dec 2017, 23:10 In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?
Yes, but that in itself doesn't say anything about the hub size of BRU vs. VIE, at BRU there is much more competition. The market share of OS at VIE is a lot bigger than SN's at BRU. I'm not sure about the market share when including codeshare partners (in particular Star Alliance partners, with the focus on the word 'partners', so SAS or TK at BRU doesn't count as SN doesn't actively work together with them), but Im quite sure VIE is still quite a lot bigger than BRU 'as a hub', but that's mainly due to the large focus of OS on the short/medium haul hub network because in terms of long haul they are not quite impressive.
I think this is indeed correct. The pax connecting in VIE to East-European destinations is impressive. That is also why SN is considered P2P and OS is considered a network airline in the LH group. For example on flights i was recently on to destinations in the Balkan such as Sarajevo the amount of pax transfering was 80 to 90% (I was even upgraded to Sarajevo to business because of overbooking, it was an A320 - daily connection!). On the other hand the CEO of SN said in an interview in a newspaper (don't remember which one that was) that they aim at having at least 40-50% O&D, even on long haul. That is the difference.

BTW the route map of OS is quite amazing: no destinations served in PT and hardly in ES (even not Barcelona)! They really focus on their niche.

Finally VIE is better located geographically to channel pax towards the East. BRU will never be able to do that !

Just my two cents
Last edited by DannyVDB on 20 Dec 2017, 07:58, edited 2 times in total.

Post Reply