Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

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rwandan-flyer
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Qantas will cancel all international flights until March 2021

In a further sign international travel is off the cards for some time, Qantas has cancelled flight bookings, except to NZ, until March 2021

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... 0a00e7463d

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

Minister of Health De Block has pointed out that there will be digitalised "passenger locator forms" that people will have to fill in to enter Belgium, for contact tracing purposes.

This is the current paper form.
https://dofi.ibz.be/sites/dvzoe/FR/Docu ... orForm.PDF

A move in the right direction, but IMO they should make an ESTA-like form available so that information can be centralized and every person crossing the border into Belgium should be filling it in.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

Per this site's reporting, Ryanair is not responding swiftly to a request of a passenger manifest after infected passengers travelled aboard one of their flights.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryan ... in-berlin/

It is inevitable.
People are getting infected aboard flights.

rwandan-flyer
Posts: 424
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Flanker2 wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 15:26
Per this site's reporting, Ryanair is not responding swiftly to a request of a passenger manifest after infected passengers travelled aboard one of their flights.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryan ... in-berlin/

It is inevitable.
People are getting infected aboard flights.
It's not the first time. The problem in this case, that it seems that Ryanair didn't react. But it's no the case for all airlines


Austrian suspended flights to some countries, due to a surge of Covid19 infections: https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -services/

Jet2 will cancel all flights to Spain, because UK gov has put quarantine, for people arriving, from Spain: https://www.hertfordshiremercury.co.uk/ ... ng-4370500

Singapore Airlines provides only, 7% of their capacity: https://economyclassandbeyond.boardinga ... september/. And about SQ, on Paris, their flights are empty. They carry foods and goods, for French market

Qantas is set to cancel nearly all its international flights until March 2021 as pandemic batters air travel: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/14/coronav ... -2021.html

Cathay Pacific carries 900 passengers a day in June: https://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news ... y-in-june/


As i already said, some airlines are taking good decisions and others not

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luchtzak
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Location: Hofstade, Zemst - Belgium
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by luchtzak »

Flanker2 wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 15:26
Per this site's reporting, Ryanair is not responding swiftly to a request of a passenger manifest after infected passengers travelled aboard one of their flights.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryan ... in-berlin/

It is inevitable.
People are getting infected aboard flights.
Ryanair issued a statement to Aviation24.be:

“Ryanair routinely deals with public health authorities’ requests for passenger contact lists in the face of suspected or confirmed Covid-19 cases. We received the request from the Health Department of the Berlin-Spandau District Office on July 22nd and Ryanair responded the same day with the appropriate documentation to release the flight manifest under GDPR regulations. The German health authorities only followed up 5 days later (July 27th) and we supplied the requested passenger details”.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

luchtzak wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 18:09
Flanker2 wrote:
28 Jul 2020, 15:26
Per this site's reporting, Ryanair is not responding swiftly to a request of a passenger manifest after infected passengers travelled aboard one of their flights.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/ryan ... in-berlin/

It is inevitable.
People are getting infected aboard flights.
Ryanair issued a statement to Aviation24.be:

“Ryanair routinely deals with public health authorities’ requests for passenger contact lists in the face of suspected or confirmed Covid-19 cases. We received the request from the Health Department of the Berlin-Spandau District Office on July 22nd and Ryanair responded the same day with the appropriate documentation to release the flight manifest under GDPR regulations. The German health authorities only followed up 5 days later (July 27th) and we supplied the requested passenger details”.
Thank you for following up. Glad to see that Ryanair are taking their responsibilities.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

This article today about flying on commerical flights.

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/ee ... ~a8e6f77b/

Experts Vlieghe and Van Ranst say that they don't feel safe to fly now.

"Aviation expert" Luc De Wilde says that it's perfectly safe because "there is no evidence" of on on-board infections.
So apparently lack of evidence overrules sound judgement.
What a fool.

TUI and Brussels Airlines are overselling their HEPA filters, I hope that they are actually fitted on their aircraft.

Piet Demeyre from TUI says that you are perfectly safe from the virus in the cabin.
Airlines are taking huge risks with such statements.
So if pax get infected aboard a TUI flight, despite TUI's guarantees, they can probably sue them for their medical bills and lasting injuries.
In fact, these PR people should be careful of the context where they make such statements because if they make statements that the airline later rejects, they could get sued personally.

Airlines should refrain from making such idiotic statements to save their financials and jobs and focus on actually ensuring safety.
The mask requirement is a good first step, but in my view the middle seat should be empty unless it's people of the same household, and curtains/dividers should be installed between rows.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 00:29
This article today about flying on commerical flights.
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/ee ... ~a8e6f77b/
"Aviation expert" Luc De Wilde says that it's perfectly safe because "there is no evidence" of on on-board infections.
So apparently lack of evidence overrules sound judgement.
What a fool.
This is dirt play, Flanker. You deliberately misquote Luk De Wilde. Why? Because you have an avocation (een roeping) to fight against aviation. Just like Don Quixote fighted against windmills.

Luk De Wilde did not say "it is perfectly safe": he said "it is perfectly justified / defendable that passenger flights continue to operate because Brussels Airport is the second important economical hub of our country".

Luk De Wilde did not say 'there is no evidence": he said "there is no scientific proof". And he also said: "there is just one way to make it totally safe: testing, till we have a vaccin". So actually, by saying "to make it totally safe", he admits its not 100% safe right now.

This is the full quote from Luk De Wilde: Volgens luchtvaartexpert Luk De Wilde is het laten doorgaan van passagiersvluchten perfect te verantwoorden, zelfs nu de coronacijfers weer stijgen. “Er is geen wetenschappelijk bewijs van coronabesmettingen aan boord”, zegt hij. “En men mag ook niet vergeten: de luchtvaartsector brengt ons land elk jaar miljarden euro’s op. Brussels Airport is, na de Antwerpse haven, de tweede belangrijkste economische motor van het land.” Volgens De Wilde is er maar één manier om het vliegen hélemaal veilig te laten verlopen – en zo het consumentenvertrouwen terug te winnen: testen, tot er een vaccin is. “De luchthavens van Frankfurt en Wenen voorzien coronatesten. De geteste passagiers krijgen dan een certificaat, waardoor ze niet noodzakelijk in quarantaine moeten als ze uit een risicogebied komen. Ik begrijp niet waarom dit in ons land niet lukt?”

Passenger
Posts: 6817
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 00:29
This article today about flying on commerical flights.
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/ee ... ~a8e6f77b/
TUI and Brussels Airlines are overselling their HEPA filters, I hope that they are actually fitted on their aircraft. Piet Demeyre from TUI says that you are perfectly safe from the virus in the cabin. Airlines are taking huge risks with such statements. So if pax get infected aboard a TUI flight, despite TUI's guarantees, they can probably sue them for their medical bills and lasting injuries. In fact, these PR people should be careful of the context where they make such statements because if they make statements that the airline later rejects, they could get sued personally. Airlines should refrain from making such idiotic statements to save their financials and jobs and focus on actually ensuring safety. The mask requirement is a good first step, but in my view the middle seat should be empty unless it's people of the same household, and curtains/dividers should be installed between rows.
I partially disagree with you here. Partially.
Airlines and airports try to make flying as safe as possible, but they can't make it 100% safe because that would be too costly to operate. So they shouldn't tell it's safe. And I think they are overselling HEPA filters and cleaning indeed.

I disagree with you where you state that passengers can sue airlines when they get infected onboard. It's almost impossible for passengers to proof that the transmission happened onboard. It could also have happened inside the terminal. Or one day after the return, in the bakery or supermarket.

"They could get sued personally". Sure, they will be sued in the Suppreme Court of Flanker City, USA. But not in Belgium and not in Europe.

Poiu
Posts: 841
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Poiu »

Passenger wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 09:57
Flanker2 wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 00:29
"Aviation expert" Luc De Wilde says that it's perfectly safe because "there is no evidence" of on on-board infections.
So apparently lack of evidence overrules sound judgement.
What a fool.
Luk De Wilde did not say "it is perfectly safe": he said "it is perfectly justified / defendable that passenger flights continue to operate because Brussels Airport is the second important economical hub of our country".

Luk De Wilde did not say 'there is no evidence": he said "there is no scientific proof".
LDW, who is a regular visitor here, more than probably knows there is scientific proof that SARS (a similar virus) easily transmits on board of aircraft. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa031349
He also knows, not all aircraft are fitted with HEPA filters and not all the air goes through the filters all the time.
Twisting the truth doesn’t help the case, be honest and just tell the travelling public there a risk and to minimise that, they have to wear adequate masks all the time and as Flanker says keep the middle seat empty, instal dividers and charge more for the remaining seats.
Many airlines are just showing that not safety but money is their primary concern.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

A word of caution to those planning to fly with Easyjet.

Easyjet's check-in algorithm prioritises stacking people closely together rather than social distancing, so that people pay to chose their seats.

I was assigned a middle seat on a 90% booked flight while 3 rows at the front were totally empty.
This is a complete U-turn from their earlier policy of keeping the middle seat open. I feel disappointed that they changed the policy.

The cabin crew was not flexible about changing seats despite that I was one of the last to board, so I moved on own initiative as soon as boarding completed was announced.

Distancing was observed during boarding in AMS and passenger forms were checked.

Flanker2
Posts: 1724
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

I follow up and do not recommend people to fly from AMS. The Netherlands is far behind other countries on the mask wearing policy. People are not wearing masks in stores and supermarkets.

Upon landing I was shocked to realise that the young monkey in his twenties behind me was not wearing his mask. However, if they don t have to wear one in everyday life, I can see why they do not tale it seriously. This is why I do not recommend flying from the Netherlands which is taking too lax an approach and will inevitably find itself overwhelmed in a matter of weeks.

Fortunately I idiotproofed by wearing a 3M full face mask but even that doesn't make me comfortable. The gentlemonkey did comply when I shouted to him to f*cking wear it.

I was pleased to see that Easyjet deplane row per row and ask everyone to stay seated. This is good sense and something I hoped airlines would do, I think that I wrote something about it earlier in this thread.
The cabin crew was also strict about enforcing this, good job.
Another good thing that thry rnforced is no more than 2 people on the batbroom queue.

I was also pleased to see that the destination airport did not fill the bus to capacity when bussing from a remote stand.

We are seeing mounting awareness amd measures to prevent infections among airlines. But still many non-sense hurdles to overcome, both on the airline side and passengers who just don't want to get it.

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Conti764
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 16:29
I follow up and do not recommend people to fly from AMS. The Netherlands is far behind other countries on the mask wearing policy. People are not wearing masks in stores and supermarkets.

Upon landing I was shocked to realise that the young monkey in his twenties behind me was not wearing his mask. However, if they don t have to wear one in everyday life, I can see why they do not tale it seriously. This is why I do not recommend flying from the Netherlands which is taking too lax an approach and will inevitably find itself overwhelmed in a matter of weeks.

Fortunately I idiotproofed by wearing a 3M full face mask but even that doesn't make me comfortable. The gentlemonkey did comply when I shouted to him to f*cking wear it.

I was pleased to see that Easyjet deplane row per row and ask everyone to stay seated. This is good sense and something I hoped airlines would do, I think that I wrote something about it earlier in this thread.
The cabin crew was also strict about enforcing this, good job.
Another good thing that thry rnforced is no more than 2 people on the batbroom queue.

I was also pleased to see that the destination airport did not fill the bus to capacity when bussing from a remote stand.

We are seeing mounting awareness amd measures to prevent infections among airlines. But still many non-sense hurdles to overcome, both on the airline side and passengers who just don't want to get it.
Boy, you must be fun to hang around with.

Flanker2
Posts: 1724
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

Conti764 wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 20:18
Flanker2 wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 16:29
I follow up and do not recommend people to fly from AMS. The Netherlands is far behind other countries on the mask wearing policy. People are not wearing masks in stores and supermarkets.

Upon landing I was shocked to realise that the young monkey in his twenties behind me was not wearing his mask. However, if they don t have to wear one in everyday life, I can see why they do not tale it seriously. This is why I do not recommend flying from the Netherlands which is taking too lax an approach and will inevitably find itself overwhelmed in a matter of weeks.

Fortunately I idiotproofed by wearing a 3M full face mask but even that doesn't make me comfortable. The gentlemonkey did comply when I shouted to him to f*cking wear it.

I was pleased to see that Easyjet deplane row per row and ask everyone to stay seated. This is good sense and something I hoped airlines would do, I think that I wrote something about it earlier in this thread.
The cabin crew was also strict about enforcing this, good job.
Another good thing that thry rnforced is no more than 2 people on the batbroom queue.

I was also pleased to see that the destination airport did not fill the bus to capacity when bussing from a remote stand.

We are seeing mounting awareness amd measures to prevent infections among airlines. But still many non-sense hurdles to overcome, both on the airline side and passengers who just don't want to get it.
Boy, you must be fun to hang around with.
I have used PPE in the line of duty, so I'm not shy about wearing a full face mask. They look a lot like the pilot oxygen masks, I think it's cool.

It keeps me from touching my face, it protects me to 99.9%. In fact, if airlines are not going to leave the middle seat empty, this os the only viable option to protect oneself.

It's an investment. They cost about 150 EUR with filters (make sure to buy the correct particle filters) , but you can reuse them hundreds of times unlike the disposable ones, and you can breathe normally without effort unlike the cheap masks that most are wearing and protect others but not the wearers.

As for the Netherlands aspect, today a fight erupted on a KLM flight AMS-IBZ, confirming my experience and strengthening my theory that many Dutch are not taking the mask wearing seriously, due to insufficient sensibilisation from their government.

While the Dutch political elite are trying to sweep Covid under the carpet, the Belgian temporary government is doing a much better job IMO. Masks, alarmist PR. It's alarmist but when there is trouble, you sound the alarm, that's what you're supposed to do.
The Dutch have their foot on fire and think that their steak is done...

AMS is in North Holland, currently an orange zone for covid purposes according to Belgian's ministry of foreign affairs.

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Conti764
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 22:31
Conti764 wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 20:18
Flanker2 wrote:
02 Aug 2020, 16:29
I follow up and do not recommend people to fly from AMS. The Netherlands is far behind other countries on the mask wearing policy. People are not wearing masks in stores and supermarkets.

Upon landing I was shocked to realise that the young monkey in his twenties behind me was not wearing his mask. However, if they don t have to wear one in everyday life, I can see why they do not tale it seriously. This is why I do not recommend flying from the Netherlands which is taking too lax an approach and will inevitably find itself overwhelmed in a matter of weeks.

Fortunately I idiotproofed by wearing a 3M full face mask but even that doesn't make me comfortable. The gentlemonkey did comply when I shouted to him to f*cking wear it.

I was pleased to see that Easyjet deplane row per row and ask everyone to stay seated. This is good sense and something I hoped airlines would do, I think that I wrote something about it earlier in this thread.
The cabin crew was also strict about enforcing this, good job.
Another good thing that thry rnforced is no more than 2 people on the batbroom queue.

I was also pleased to see that the destination airport did not fill the bus to capacity when bussing from a remote stand.

We are seeing mounting awareness amd measures to prevent infections among airlines. But still many non-sense hurdles to overcome, both on the airline side and passengers who just don't want to get it.
Boy, you must be fun to hang around with.
I have used PPE in the line of duty, so I'm not shy about wearing a full face mask. They look a lot like the pilot oxygen masks, I think it's cool.

It keeps me from touching my face, it protects me to 99.9%. In fact, if airlines are not going to leave the middle seat empty, this os the only viable option to protect oneself.

It's an investment. They cost about 150 EUR with filters (make sure to buy the correct particle filters) , but you can reuse them hundreds of times unlike the disposable ones, and you can breathe normally without effort unlike the cheap masks that most are wearing and protect others but not the wearers.

As for the Netherlands aspect, today a fight erupted on a KLM flight AMS-IBZ, confirming my experience and strengthening my theory that many Dutch are not taking the mask wearing seriously, due to insufficient sensibilisation from their government.

While the Dutch political elite are trying to sweep Covid under the carpet, the Belgian temporary government is doing a much better job IMO. Masks, alarmist PR. It's alarmist but when there is trouble, you sound the alarm, that's what you're supposed to do.
The Dutch have their foot on fire and think that their steak is done...

AMS is in North Holland, currently an orange zone for covid purposes according to Belgian's ministry of foreign affairs.
I wasn't referring to the mask you wear, that's entirely your choice.

The way you address other people is more of an issue.

Poiu
Posts: 841
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Poiu »

Conti764 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 00:17

I wasn't referring to the mask you wear, that's entirely your choice.

The way you address other people is more of an issue.
Other people not wearing a mask or airlines ignoring the Covid rules are an even bigger issue.

Matt
Posts: 132
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Matt »

Conti764 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 00:17

The way you address other people is more of an issue.
The guy basically does what he wants here. Mods don't do anything about this guy. ( you should know this already )

Also: mods: the posts above could imply racism ( monkeys, I think Leopold also used those words... ) ;) but it's flanker and he gets away with all kind of bullshit.

Poiu
Posts: 841
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Poiu »

Matt wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 12:06

The guy basically does what he wants here. Mods don't do anything about this guy. ( you should know this already )

Also: mods: the posts above could imply racism ( monkeys, I think Leopold also used those words... ) ;) but it's flanker and he gets away with all kind of bullshit.
Whilst I fully agree with you that the message isn’t brought in the most appropriate way, we should not throw away the baby with the bath water!
There are some individuals and companies out there which are not respecting the rules and recommendations, there is a significant risk this behaviour will harm aviation even more in these difficult times.
There’s nothing wrong with naming and shaming them, I would even argue it’s displaying civic responsibility, but let’s stay civilised indeed.

alttravel
Posts: 1
Joined: 03 Aug 2020, 15:18

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by alttravel »

Matt wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 12:06
Conti764 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 00:17

The way you address other people is more of an issue.
The guy basically does what he wants here. Mods don't do anything about this guy. ( you should know this already )

Also: mods: the posts above could imply racism ( monkeys, I think Leopold also used those words... ) ;) but it's flanker and he gets away with all kind of bullshit.
I made an account after many years because I am fed up with this. Please let people have their own opinion even if it is negative.
I have been active for many years in the aviation business and I am pro airline. This is however childish behavior. I see many people on this forum who seem to have no grasp on how to handle opinions. Just respectfully disagree and stop acting like it is the end of the world.
The world must be a really difficult place for many of you...

And don't try to make something racist without knowing the context.

Edit: to clarify, this is also a general remark for the whole toxic Brussels Airlines forum topic before the clean-up

Matt
Posts: 132
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Matt »

alttravel wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 15:24
Matt wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 12:06
Conti764 wrote:
03 Aug 2020, 00:17

The way you address other people is more of an issue.
The guy basically does what he wants here. Mods don't do anything about this guy. ( you should know this already )

Also: mods: the posts above could imply racism ( monkeys, I think Leopold also used those words... ) ;) but it's flanker and he gets away with all kind of bullshit.
I made an account after many years because I am fed up with this. Please let people have their own opinion even if it is negative.
I have been active for many years in the aviation business and I am pro airline. This is however childish behavior. I see many people on this forum who seem to have no grasp on how to handle opinions. Just respectfully disagree and stop acting like it is the end of the world.
The world must be a really difficult place for many of you...

And don't try to make something racist without knowing the context.

Edit: to clarify, this is also a general remark for the whole toxic Brussels Airlines forum topic before the clean-up
Well, calling people monkeys is not an opinion. It's a statement. And it's disparaging.

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